If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway Operations

Discussion in 'Heritage railways & Centres in the Uk' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,083
    Likes Received:
    4,108
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Given the news that 2818 has, or is to be transfered to Steam Museum , and that something will have to move out to make room for it, are there any plans in hand if 7821 has to be moved out to make room for the former NRM engine (2818), to return the Manor to the WSR ?
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    974
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    This rang a bell, sending me straight to the CIE's 1948 assessment of the ex-MSWR class H 0-6-0 (GSR Class 619) locos. Permit me to quote:

    "A very powerful engine [sic], but the wheel diameter is 4' 9" from which the higher power is derived: The revolutions per mile are, therefore, excessive and the engine needs continuous heavy repair after 20,000 miles"

    (Ref sourced from Locomotives of the GSR Clements & McMahon pub Colourpoint 2008)
     
    Yorkshireman likes this.
  3. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    1,585
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hayling Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Steady on Howard. It sounds if you are going down with a bad case of the dreaded "big chufferitis". As said umpteen times these are lines with 25mph speed restrictions which should hold no terrors (and don't) for machinery with 4ft diameter coupled wheels yet alone 4ft. 7ins. Again see the Dartmouth Steam Railway.

    Paul H
     
  4. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    7,083
    Likes Received:
    4,108
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I know lets see if the WSR want the two Bagnals back and they can run services with those, ideal locos Paul, small modern tank engines, why they even have roller bearings and rocking grates, small so should be economic, to lighten the load the WSR can remove those heavy buffet cars, job done
     
  5. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2013
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    876
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Plots of DBHP versus velocity are a curve with a peak ie the speed range at which the maximum horsepower is developed. With smaller wheels this maximum power range will be at lower speed, hence more suitable, in terms of 25mph operation.

    There are of course disadvantages e.g. Maximum fore and aft motion on a 28xx 2-8-0 with 4 ft 7inch dia wheels occurs at c.25mph whereas with a 51xx 2-6-2 tank, 5ft 8inch dia it is at a higher speed and therefore less of a concern on Heritage Railways, particularly when hauling dining trains.

    Some comparatively small locos have very high TEs, to enable them to move heavy loads, GWR 31xx 2-6-2 tanks with 5ft 3inch dia coupled wheels and a Swindon Standard No.4 boiler for example had at 85% a TE of 31,170 , a Castle 4-6-0 with 6ft 8.5 inch dia coupled wheels and a Swindon standard no.8 boiler has a TE of 31,165. At the moment of movement they will both have a similar TE and yes the tractive force will decline quicker vs increase in speed for the 2-6-2 tank but conversely horse power will increase faster as the maximum HP for a 31xx was I think in the 30-40 mph range, whereas 50 -55 mph for the Castle (figures from memory). However maximum EDHP for the Castle is c.1800 ( a limit of the No.8 boiler evaporation rate not of the cylinders) for a 31xx (assuming the No.4 boiler is the limitation and not the front end) 1100. The smaller loco is not as powerful as the larger but it's 'gearing' (coupled wheel diameter) is optimised for lower speed operation.

    Yes you can have smaller cylinders to give the same TE with smaller diameter wheels or keep the cylinders the same size and have a higher TE.

    Some thoughts. When 48151 (BR 8F) rather than one of the Stanier 5s (5MT) is used on Main Line duties not surprisingly its initial acceleration from stationary with similar loads is consistently better (they of course have the same boiler and same size cylinders)

    On the WSR we have 53808 a 7F, it carries the same boiler as a Midland Compound 4-4-0 (indeed I think 53808's boiler was originally on a 4-4-0) but Compounds were 4P (4ft 7inch dia vs 6ft 9inch coupled wheels)

    Tractive effort is not a measure of power.

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
    Aberdare and paulhitch like this.
  6. Paul Kibbey

    Paul Kibbey Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2014
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Land of Sodor
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  7. 45076

    45076 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    34004
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    7821 is inside in the dry, unlikely to be anywhere on WSR to be able to offer that.

    After spending the last 2 years of its ticket at CVR it was bought by WSRA for £180k with the proceeds of the sale of 6412 to SDR.
    Great optimism at the time with quotes like it will be running by Xmas with an extension to its boiler ticket, even a 2 year extension being banded about. But sadly it was in a much worse condition than expected. It moved from Cheddleton to Bishops Lydeard via Crewe, later moving to Williton. As money was not available for an overhaul it moved to Steam at Swindon on a 5 year loan. It has now been there for 7 years.10 years since its boiler ticket expired.
    Anyone got a spare £300-400k?
     
    Yorkshireman likes this.
  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,720
    Likes Received:
    1,585
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hayling Island
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well I don't know Ireland at all but I was given to understand that some lines were so restricted as to permissable axle loadings that the larger motive power had to be mechanically less sturdy than desirable. Design details have a part to play as well. For example Stroudley's locomotives were far less prone to frame fractures than those of his successor.

    Paul H
     
  9. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Messages:
    381
    Likes Received:
    376
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Quite right Paul - 5ft8 sounds about right don't you think?
     
    paulhitch likes this.
  10. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    9,635
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Need to be careful about mythical statements.

    Perhaps you would care to identify who you would quote as saying 'it will be running by Xmas' ? I was WSRA Chairman at the time and (1) I never said such a thing and (2) was very clear the the 2 year extension was only a possibility.

    Ditcheat is in fact in exactly the condition envisaged. It was the quality of the paperwork available (and a change in regulatory approach) which prevented it running for a period after acquisition.

    Robin
     
    Yorkshireman and Paul Kibbey like this.
  11. 45076

    45076 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    58
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    34004
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    7821 is inside in the dry, unlikely to be anywhere on WSR to be able to offer that.

    After spending the last 2 years of its ticket at CVR it was bought by WSRA for £180k with the proceeds of the sale of 6412 to SDR.
    Great optimism at the time with quotes like it will be running by Xmas with an extension to its boiler ticket, even a 2 year extension being banded about. But sadly it was in a much worse condition than expected. It moved from Cheddleton to Bishops Lydeard via Crewe, later moving to Williton. As money was not available for an overhaul it moved to Steam at Swindon on a 5 year loan. It has now been there for 7 years.10 years since its boiler ticket expired.
    Anyone got a spare £300-400k?
    https://www.national-preservation.com/members/yanky.600/
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    7,978
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Did I ever say that T.E was a measure of power? If you are dragging a load up a gradient you need a given tractive effort/drawbar pull, depending where you measure things. At our sort of speeds, that is a relatively constant value. In theory, a steam locomotive is a constant torque machine, unlike a diesel electric, which is essentially a constant horsepower machine. However, in practice this is not the case and the T.E. will fall off as speed increases due to the practical inability to get sufficient steam into the cylinders. if you look at a TE v speed curve , you will be able to obtain a balancing speed above which that required T.E. will not be produced. Provided that the boiler will supply the steam, that is your main consideration. Other than a piece of statistical information, it matters nor one jot what maximum horespower the loco can produce because that peak horespower is only available for one set of circumstances of speed and tractive effort as it is not a constant horespower machine.
    As for Midland/LMS/BR loco power classification, we are entering an entirely different area of discussion which has been aired elsewhere on Nat Pres. Passenger and freight classifications did not use the same criteria.
     
  13. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,454
    Likes Received:
    774
    cancelled
     
  14. Robin White

    Robin White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    8,016
    Likes Received:
    9,635
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    To provide a piece of evidence to debunk the suggestion that a 45XX is as good as a Manor, here is the relevant page from the WSR General Appendix.

    It will be seen that a 45XX is maximum load 7 bogies, whereas a Manor is max load 9.

    The very sensible statement at the top of the page is to be noted.

    In Operations terms it is not sensible to diagram locos to work normally at their maximum load.

    So that leads to the conclusion that a 45XX should be used for a normal load of up to 6, a Manor for normal load up to 8.

    Robin

    IMG_7501.JPG
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  15. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,432
    Likes Received:
    2,919
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry for my tardy reply to @Jeff Price. I've been tied up working on the railway for several days.

    Just two things.

    My estimate, having completed a detailed plan for 4561 along with a lot of assistance from Aberdare and the Williton Engineering Manager is that we need approx. £200k to complete the work. This would be reduced if we could get more skilled volunteers to work on the loco. The fundraising team are well aware of this and are currently looking at ways to raise the cash. This will dictate the timescale. I have no idea about the cost of the manor or 4110 as the same detailed planning exercise has not been carried out on either loco.
    Why did that idiot aldfort do the detailed exercise on 4561 first? Well at the consultation meeting last year you may recall that this was the loco the members decided they wanted progressed first.
    Jeff you may also recall sitting in the Lethbridge Arms with me pleading with you to consider becoming a trustee and helping to get loco restoration work going?
     
  16. West Somerset Wizard

    West Somerset Wizard Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2005
    Messages:
    3,041
    Likes Received:
    1,187
    Occupation:
    Cartographer
    Location:
    200 miles from Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    [deleted and moved to the new thread]

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  17. Bayard

    Bayard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    808
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    From that table, it looks like the ideal locomotive for the line would be one of the 28xx class.
     
    Andy2857, 1472 and Paul Kibbey like this.
  18. Paul Kibbey

    Paul Kibbey Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2014
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Land of Sodor
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Or a S&DJR 7F .
     
  19. michaelh

    michaelh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,340
    Likes Received:
    485
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Very comfortably early retired
    Location:
    1029
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    As they are for most of the longer heritage railways.
     
    Paul Kibbey and 1472 like this.
  20. 30854

    30854 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    1,070
    Likes Received:
    974
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Irish axle loads (short O/T version). With the exceptions of Ennis-Athenry (the now Western Rail Corridor) and Manulla Jc-Ballina, no surviving lines were rated less than 16T axle load. Ex-GSR Dublin-Cork was cleared for the 21T axle load 800 Class, all other main routes were rated 17T 12c or 18T 10c. Ex-MGWR lines to Galway, Wesport, Sligo, Cavan & Kingscourt were rated 18T 10c.

    The restricted routes made up considerable mileages but traffic-wise, aside from peat or seasonal beet traffic, were pretty insignificant. This, coupled with the poor state of roads, kept lines open long after the impartial observer would have expected them to close. It also accounted for the survival of so many choice antiques into the 1950s and the development of lightweight diesel locos.
     

Share This Page