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Not too sure

Discussion in 'Railwayana' started by CH 19, Aug 29, 2017.

  1. CH 19

    CH 19 Active Member Friend

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    20170829_214514.jpg Hi there, l have recieved this recently as a present and although l have researched as much as l am able to, l have no idea what it actually is, as, I thought the LMS ceased to exist from 1/1/1948.
    Any ideas out there greatfully recieved.
    Thank you

    Chris
     
  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Well-Known Member

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    Rather in the same way some locos were repainted in pre grouping livery as the new livery had not been agreed I suspect that in the absence of instructions some plated/documents had to come out with LMS on because when they were produced, although it was for post 1.1.48 use there were no details of what to do next.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Active Member

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    Intriguing. I've seen plenty of photos of locos hurriedly idented with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" emblazoned over patched pre-grouping livery, from virtually day one, well ahead of the crest (or as John says, BR livery) being used. The title of the nationalised concern must surely have been known from the time the Act was passed. Does anyone recognise where this style of plate would have been used? Loco, carriage, wagon, other?
     
  4. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Looks like a wagon rebuild plate.
    They probably just kept making them with 'LMS' on for quite some time.
     
  5. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    I am really sorry to say this but could it be a fake? In certain fields, especially cast iron objects there are loads of them. Putting an incorrect date on might be a means of saying in effect, "you must have known its not right because of the date".

    PH
     
  6. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Hardly seems worth the effort of faking something like that?
     
  7. huochemi

    huochemi Active Member Friend

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    It is not from a loco but could be from a wagon or item of specialised rolling stock. I wouldn't get hung up about the date, the standard LMS loco worksplate was inclined to be anachronistic (see attached), and as has already been said, the reality is that things did not change overnight - see link to A2 Sun Chariot's LNER plate of 1948 http://www.ukrailwayana.com/20140001/imgs/wp_lner_2018_v.jpg . As to it being a fake, I agree with Saggy, assuming it is cast iron and not plywood, that seems unlikely as it is not valuable enough to make it worth anyone's while. Far more profitable to turn out fake shedplates which sell readily at auction. Tim Petchey may be able to help with a more specific ID http://www.rag-mag.co.uk/ .
     

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  8. CH 19

    CH 19 Active Member Friend

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    Thanks for the replies and info, l shall run down the wagon line to start with.
     
  9. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    It seems there is widespread fakery of basic cast iron signs in Ireland> Some are known here as well

    PH
     
  10. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    The Irish fakes tend to be a little more elaborate.
     
  11. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Not the ones I have seen pictures of. I don't see what the point of arguing about this is anyway. Over history people have faked things that are selling for tempting prices. Railwayana is no different and we need to be prudent.

    PH
     
  12. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Could be a fake but I suspect, that as has already been stated, is off a wagon or coach that was rebuilt during the change over to nationalisation and plate cast from existing patterns. Remember the patterns made of wood were a standard shape and size ( for the job ) with just the numerals changed before casting. It is quite feasible the foundry just used an existing LMS pattern for expediency. In addition railwaymen could be quite loyal and continued to mark items up with company initials for as long as possible. Indeed diesels iI believe 10000 and 10001 had LMS cast into the cab step treads even though 100001 entered traffic after nationalisation.
    I also photographed EM1s or class 76s with LNER Timken axlebox covers even though the first locos entered service in 1950 so anomalies do exist.
     
  13. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    Is it from a vehicle?
    Or is it off a Structure?
    Some bridges have detail plates like this dating when it was rebuilt / repainted etc.
     
  14. CH 19

    CH 19 Active Member Friend

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    I have been working along the building/ structure line because it is only a three digit number, but as usual my 'free time' is anything but these days.
    Thanks
    Chris
     
  15. CH 19

    CH 19 Active Member Friend

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    Thank you for that Mandator, yes in the hunt for answers l have come across such stuff. It might just be based on what l have actually seen but the men of the GWR seemed most loathe to re-initial, found a few plates (pictures of) to prove that one.

    Chris
     
  16. Mandator

    Mandator Member

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    Never thought about a structure but make equal sense.
     

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