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Banking

Discussion in 'Signalling M.I.C.' started by southyorkshireman, Nov 17, 2007.

  1. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    When 'proper' banking takes place i.e. banker simply buffered up to train, how is this signalled?

    Are there any issues with the train apparently splitting on the signalling diagram when the banker drops off?

    The most obvious example I can think of is charters out of Victoria
     
  2. lil Bear

    lil Bear Part of the furniture

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    Like when they had bankers on shap in steam days?
     
  3. southyorkshireman

    southyorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    Yes.

    But I get the impression its more complicated these days
     
  4. 33056

    33056 Member

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    No, not complicated.

    Trains can only be assisted in the rear where specified in the Sectional Appendix or by special instruction, or in case of an emergency. If (as in the case at Victoria) the loco is not coupled to the rear, then the place that this loco leaves the train is clearly specified and the driver of any such loco must not proceed past any signals beyond this point until they have been replaced to danger and cleared again.

    I am a bit rusty with Absolute Block, but it used to be after giving train entering section, each loco on the rear was signalled 2-2. The signalman in advance would then not give train out of section until the rearmost loco was no longer in the section. With TCB, the signalman would be aware if the train was banked and therefore be expecting to see a track circuit left occupied.
     
  5. 34007

    34007 Part of the furniture

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    Doesnt the leading loco always give over the token?! I remember volunteering on one line where the trailing loco gave over the token. Shouldnt it be the trailing loco so when the train is clear of a section?
     
  6. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Part of the furniture Friend

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    This used to be the case but the rules on NR have changed. The token is now shown to the driver at the rear but carried by the leading driver. Some, but not all heritage lines now also follow this rule.

    Bankers on single line sections would normally be coupled to the train and work throughout the section, carrying the token. The only exception was at one or two places where there was a separate banker token which allowed the banker to drop off mid section and return to the starting point, while the train carrying the normal token continued on its way. This happened at Fishguard and at Bath (S&D).
     
  7. jtx

    jtx Well-Known Member Friend

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    Indeed, on the Severn Valley, we used to follow the 1955 rule book, which stipulated that the rearmost engine should carry the token. We were all happy with that, it made sense and it was safe. The rules were changed a few years ago, so now the front engine carries the token and the rear driver has no responsibility at all for it. I'm not wildly happy about it and I know I'm not alone, but there it is. I know one very experienced signalman resigned and left the Valley because of that.
     
  8. howardw-s

    howardw-s New Member

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    Does that absolve the rear Driver of any responsibility if the Driver at the front goes off without the token?
     
  9. m1ss_wh1te

    m1ss_wh1te New Member

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    That scares me too.
     
  10. hassell_a

    hassell_a Active Member

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    Yes.
     
  11. boldford

    boldford Member

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    Why fix something that wasn't broken?
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think that the NR rule change came about because of the ambiguity of diesel locos working in multiple or (say) a HST set or a train with a DVT. The rules used to say carried on the rearmost loco but it is obviously not practical to comply in such cases. It gets complicated when you start to consider differentiating between diesels in multiple and diesels in tandem and a principle of the modern rulebook is that it is simple and unambiguous, hence the decision to change to carrying the token on the lead loco. It essentially works on the modern railway. Whether Heritage Railways need to emulate it is a different matter.
     
  13. Calan

    Calan Member

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    The signalling of a train assisted in the rear isn't hard. Just use a different bell code.
     
  14. Wenlock

    Wenlock Active Member Friend

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    Use the "normal" bell-code, then the "assisted in rear" code after sending TES.

    The only complicated bit (does not apply at KESR) is if the assistance detaches before next block post.
     
  15. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Observing what happens on the big railway, the token is normally shown to the driver at the rear (if there is one) and then handed to the driver at the front. This can take a long time if it is a lengthy train as the signalman has to walk the length of the train twice.
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You're not wrong in your observations but carrying the token on the rear loco has proved to be problematical on the modern big railway. See my earlier post.
     
  17. 5914

    5914 New Member

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    My understanding - though at secondhand was that the Rule Change on NR came about after a diesel-hauled (top-and-tailed, due to a lack of run-round facilities) train went through a section with no token. The driver in the front loco entered the section (having seen the signalman holding the token) thinking that the driver of the rear loco would collect it. The only problem being that the only person on the rear loco was not a driver, only a member of traincrew to operate the fire extinguishers in case of emergency.
    Clearly there was a source of confusion - even when locos were not working in multiple - an RSSB went with a solution that left no room for doubt. (After all, apart from recoevering failures, it is rare to have a train with no driver in the leading locomotive)
    I know at least one Heritage Railway followed the RSSB route, having had a different issue with locomotives being moved in 'light steam'.
     
  18. Sheff

    Sheff Part of the furniture

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    OK I'm confused (doesn't take much I know). So under the old regs, the banker had the token. So what happened at the top of the bank? Did the whole train have to come to a halt whilst the tokens were sorted out for the train engine to proceed and banker to return? Presumably on Shap and other double track lines there was no token in the first place?
     
  19. gwr4090

    gwr4090 Part of the furniture Friend

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    When banking on a single line section, the banker would normally be coupled to the train and remain with the train through to the next block post, with the ttrain token carried by the banker (prior to recent NR rule changes). However at one or two locations in days gone by, a separate "banking token" was provided for the banker, which allowed it to drop off the train in mid-section and return to the starting point. The main token would be carried by the train engine. A banking token was used on the climb from Fishguard&Goodwick and also Bath Green Park on the S&D.

    David
     

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