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80078

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Steve1015, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Part of the furniture Staff Member Moderator

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    one thing to consider is that whilst these loco's are very useful they were built with a degree of obsolesence in mind . Look at the extensive boiler work on 80135 (not a lot left) and although relatively modern engines they need a lot of money spending on them . of those out of ticket they have done a lot of work in preservation some more than one overhaul cycle . We also can't have every loco in traffic all the time , they are consumable and they will wear out so the socialist ideal espoused of a redistribution of motive power is unrealistic , not least it does a disservice to the line and owners

    this may stir up a little discussion and I don't mean this in a bad way but I would also suggest they are a little boring , don't have that excitement factor that other loco's have . We have the planets favourite prairie but the poor old standard tank is just that standard, taken a little for granted
     
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  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Part of the furniture

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    That's pretty much what I've tried to say however Martin, you've put it better than I have! Yes they are useful machines to have around but you can't have everything in traffic at the same time! How many people are looking forward to seeing GW version of a Standard Tank in 4150 returning to steam? It's capable of doing the same job, and it's filling the gap left by 5164 and 80079 before it.
     
  3. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    If a new inner firebox is required, it would be the first copper box to be replaced with a new copper box. Both 80002 and 80135 had copper boxes replaced by steel boxes. 80135 is now reverting to copper and, I assume, 80002 will be, as well.
     
  4. John Petley

    John Petley Well-Known Member

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    Each to his own, but I have to say that the Standard 4MT tanks are one of my favourite classes. I always enjoy seeing 80104 if it is working when I visit Swanage and am very much looking forward to 80151's return to steam - hopefully later this year or early next - at the Bluebell. They are nicely proportioned and the ideal engine for heritage line operation. What's there not to like about them?
     
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  5. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Nothing wrong with them at all, which is why I contributed to 80072, but I wouldn't like them to be omnipresent, how dull would that be?
     
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  6. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    No other tank loco has the curves of a Standard 4 tank.
     
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  7. MellishR

    MellishR Part of the furniture Friend

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    There really aren't enough of them in service to be "boring". On the recent RPSI weekend, although Merlin's failure was a disappointment, having the "jeep" (which is a close relation of the standard tanks) for the whole of the three days was a very acceptable substitute. Personally I like all that family and I will be delighted to see the Fowler version reborn if I live long enough.
     
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  8. 1472

    1472 Active Member

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    Very much agreed - providing owners & hiring railways can reach suitable agreement which sufficiently protects the interests of both parties over the longer term.
     
  9. The Saggin' Dragon

    The Saggin' Dragon Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I quite like the look of the Fairburn tanks.
     
  10. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Active Member

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    Seeing as people are passing judgement....I just came across something which in the context of the recent posts on this thread I thought was amusing....


    K. J. Cook, who at the time was the CM&EE of BR-E&NE, gave an address in 1955 at the Swindon Engineering Society (BR-WR) that was titled:

    "The Steam Locomotive: a Machine of Precision"

    For the most part, the talk is 38 pages of fairly dry going...until the last paragraph, when Cook gives his final thoughts on the matter:

    "It is hoped that this address has vindicated its title. It was your President’s thought to make the title “The British Locomotive, a Machine of Beauty and Precision.” Until 1950 that would not have been inept, but with the advent of certain engines with a strong continental or transatlantic appearance, it was thought that this would not now be suitable".


    Please note - the above quote does not reflect my views on BR standards - it just made me chuckle a bit! :)
     
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  11. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I've said this many times before, but ownership patterns are shifting, from individuals to their host railways, as overhaul costs continue to grow and the original owners die off and their heirs do not want the locos and the associated liabilities. This process helps railways to secure their locos but also offers the locos themselves a brighter future as the railways will want to keep their purchases in traffic as much as possible to justify the purchase. The losers in this evolutionary process will be the locomotive owning groups who will see their locos passed over for use in favour of railway-owned engines.
     
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  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Well-Known Member

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    It also depends on the number of locos in the fleet. Too many means a lot out of service for a long time. They need to build up a sufficient mileage between overhauls to justify the overhaul costs. The more in service, the lower the average mileage, and the less earned income to contribute towards those costs.
     
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  13. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Active Member

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    An interesting (and sensible) way of looking at it. Possibly, you could come up with a ratio along the lines of: for every 2 locos you have a good amount of work for, you need another 1 being overhauled. However, on the flip side of that equation is Joe public getting bored with seeing the same two locos for years at a time. If you look at it that way, then having the variety of more locos that do less work may pay for itself at overhaul time by bringing in more punters.

    Makes my head hurt. I'm glad I'm not in charge!
     
  14. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Ohh I have to say I do like the look of these!!! be797481f1626a63702b5f3326db7783.jpg

    And hey at least it gives a bit of variety surely? Paul can you argue that this is not a good New build and sensible? It ticks all the boxes that you have said and in terms of being good for Joe public it can be painted in lms crimson which would be nice for a bit of variety.
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm not sure you can be so prescriptive.

    As an example, suppose you are a railway doing 40,000 loco miles per year, and you have a fleet of BR standards available. You might reasonably expect 80,000 miles between heavy overhauls; that means you need potentially five locos in traffic, and need to overhaul one every two years. (Assuming that your traffic pattern never requires more than, say, 4 in traffic on any one day; you might want six available for comfort).

    Suppose instead you have a bunch of grouping-era designs. You'd probably be doing well to get 60,000 miles between overhauls, which means you need about 7 available to do the same 40,000 miles per year service, and you need to overhaul one every 16 months or so.

    If instead you have a fleet of pre-grouping designs but are still trying to do 40,000 miles, then 40 - 50,000 between overhauls would be good going - at which point you need between 8 and 10 in traffic, and need to be overhauling pretty much one every year.

    The actual figures might vary between railways on account of how hard they are worked (combination of load and gradient). But to me, the cost advantage of a loco like a BR Standard is more to do with the mileage you can get between overhauls (meaning a requirement to have fewer in traffic at any one time), rather than any perceived efficiency in running costs.

    Of course, that is all rather theoretical - most railways work out how to run their service based on whatever mix they have available, rather than starting from a position of what would be ideal!

    Tom
     
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  16. GWR Man.

    GWR Man. Well-Known Member

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    If you asked what engine was pulling their train most likely they wont have remembers the engine number at all, the colour most likely, if named a chance (most likely by the children) and if they been on the line before a very low chance if it was the same engine or not even if the line has only the same one working steam engine each time they have come. Jo Public mainly comes to travel behind a steam engine and what one it doesn't bother them at all. Yes there could be a few times if a famous engine is coming to that line, they might remember because they went to see that engine.
     
  17. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    It isn't just Joe Public that you have to worry about, what if your volunteers start to get bored and drift away?
     
  18. 1472

    1472 Active Member

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    I think you will find that Joe public couldn't really give a toss provided they usually get a steam loco on the front. The idea of building one of these sits firmly in the WIBN train spotting category along with the majority of new build proposals.
     
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  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Part of the furniture

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    Why would you suppose I had any objection to these? However 1472's opinions are, to me, broadly correct

    PH
     
  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Only my opinion, but I think the Fowler 4MT is a bit bigger than most railways need. For most lines a class 2 or 3 engine is more than enough and the extra coal and water capacity of a tender engine (plus the extra space on the footplate for Footex customers) makes more sense.
     

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