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35018 British India Line

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 34014, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. acorb

    acorb Active Member

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    This has to be one of the daftest or most naive comments I have seen on this forum for a long time - or just plain provocative? BIL was a complete wreck whereas 35028 has been maintained in Rolls Royce condition for the last 40-50 years by people who know her inside out.
    Yes she has run perfectly, but it was a risk. If she had failed and missed some of the 50th anniversary runs whose approach would have been criticised then?
    The fact that BIL is being eased back and adjusted after each run is entirely sensible, what a preserved line would do no less, but no doubt West Coast would also have been criticised if 35018 had been put on a run then failed, due insufficient testing..
     
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  2. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    I agree the comparison is utterly fatuous whatever the intent.
    Also agree with your comments about gentle running in. The only slight flaw is that this has been protracted by only being able to send it out fot a meaningful leg stretch once a month since it moved under its own power. If it had a heritage line to use for testing the bedding in might have taken a fraction of the time and it would now be earning its keep. Plus it may have earned some hire income as a visiting attraction. Ovbiously the owners are content to do it this way and its their call.
     
  3. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    The owners are a TOC with their own workshop facilities not a hand to mouth owning group who will need the loco out earning money asap. Totally different set of priorities.
     
  4. Dobbs0054

    Dobbs0054 Active Member

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    If there are teething problems similar to Scots Guardsman that are then ironed out and BIL performs as well in the medium to long term, then that will be great. I imagine that when 46115 re-emerges, the teething problems will not be the same. Comparison with 35028 are not like for like.
     
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  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In my original post i was just asking if the teething problems were to do with BIL being an unfamiliar engine, to the staff at Carnforth, much of the home fleet being LMS , its in no way questioning the ability of that staff, as some have said, Clan line was very well known by the engineers who worked on her, I'm assuming that the Loco's own engineers did the setting up etc, I accept the two are chalk and cheese, that in time the loco will settle down, on a technical note, on engines with walcherts valve gear, are the setting up of valve events the same, are MN's different than say a jubilee?
     
  6. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Of course that is very true which suggests there is another factor limiting outings to once a month. Cost of network access perhaps?
     
  7. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Part of the furniture

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    As noted by others you are NOT comparing the same thing even though both locomotives are originally from the same class.

    Clan Line is operate as a commercial venture with a prestigious contract to support. The fact it does so is that since withdrawal it has been owned, maintained and operated by staff who were familiar with the locomotive during its final BR days; staff dedicated to both ownership and operation and staff willing to pass on their skills to a generation which has been attracted by the professionalism of the owning body and the effect it has on linesiders when used (sparingly) on its contracted services.
    It may seem an odd comparison but the maintenance regime is similar to that adopted by Ian Riley; regular maintenance and immediate replacement of suspect parts - no waiting until they fail in service and usually at great cost once the costs of failure are apportioned to the various operators affected by the various operators responsible.

    Compare this to the fate of BIL which is now operational after lengthy periods in store. Comparison is made by many with 46115 BUT they ignore the fact the 46115 also spent lengthy periods in store at various sites and when the time became available to restore it to main line service the knowledge of the innermost parts of the locomotive and its internal assembly had been lost through time; in essence the restoration team had to assemble a pool of parts without assembly instructions or knowledge of the locomotive in any way.

    If you wish to compare the outcomes then the activity surrounding BIL is more analogous to that of 46115 where assembly took place after many years in store at different locations and once the skills / knowledge / experience of the locomotive were no longer available. To compare the restoration of BIL in such circumstances with the different circumstances of Clan Line, which has been in regular use supported by knowledgable support teams since withdrawal from BR service, is frankly impossible. Whilst the skills of the Clan Line team may be available to the BIL team on request the nature of the 2 organisations suggest to this linesider that there may be more circumstances different between them than there are in common.
     
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  8. Victor

    Victor Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Any suggestions where ??? How to get it there ?? (road as we all know is not kind to large locomotives), and what happens, when it does get........somewhere, for running in if there is a failure that can't be fixed without a heavy workshop and it needs to get back to Carnforth ?? Road again ??
    What's the problem/rush ?? Carnforth are doing a job and it'll be ready when it's ready.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not sure you could have both - it's either run in and available for traffic (whether on a heritage line or mainline) or not. A heritage line with a service to cover would be taking a risk - to put it mildly - to take a loco to cover its own services when that loco was still being tested; even more so if the owners wanted to carry out testing exactly to their own timescales. ("Can you just stick it over a pit for 20 minutes while I investigate that odd knocking? No? What do you mean you've got 300 passengers on the platform looking at their watches wondering when the train is due to go?") You need somewhere quiet, especially to start with, to do things like run it slowly, or stop for a feel round, or run it through the day on progressively heavier loads, or go back and forth between a pit and a running line etc.

    The other point about going to a heritage line is simply paperwork. On the assumption the owning organisation would be primarily responsible for operating while on a heritage line, the host would find it would need to work out produces for operation, insurance of personnel, payment for consumables (water, coal, oil, power etc), gauging at the heritage line, providing a pilot driver etc. It's possible, but not necessarily trivial. (One of the unseen factors when locos go on hire is a considerable behind-the-scenes administrative effort to make it happen).

    Tom
     
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  10. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Or it could be countless other reasons like no suitable crew available, this is the height of the summer season with many different charters running several days of the week, plus the ecs workings.
    There are all the working locos to look after as well, and these must be the priority at the moment.
    So turn BIL out before she is really ready and be dammed if there is a problem, but keep the 'expert enthusiasts' waiting and be dammed for that.
     
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  11. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Fully accept all those other demands and of course proving the loco is THE most important matter. My point is, as @Johnb mentioned, there is a commercial imperative to have 35018 fully comissioned as soon as possible. My only point was that in not exploring other ways of getting this done has impinged upon the objective. Partnering with a respected railway might have mutual benefits?
     
  12. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Totally accept there are complications to partnering with a heritage line, ot just seems on the face of it at least the potential benefits outweigh the problems, particularly asbmany WC ops staff are affiliated to various heritage lines as well.
    Perhaps it has been looked into and discounted, not the impression I have picked up.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    So WCRC should cancel a couple of steam tours just to expedite 35018's return? You'd have a field day with that. :rolleyes:
     
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Can you be certain that other ways have not been explored? It may well be that commercially it would be nice for BIL to be available as from Tuesday when SG is withdrawn, but it's more commercially important for her to be running to the satisfaction of all concerned, it would not be commercially sound to have her fail for want of extra time snagging and testing.
    As for mutual benefits to involve others with a respected railway,maybe this has this been done, you don't know that either.
     
  15. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    WC are a successful TOC and engineering company, I think they know what they are doing and when it's ready there will be a second MN out on the mainline. I just hope someone sneaks into fortress Carnforth with a tin of green paint before that happens.
     
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  16. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Given previous I suspect you are wilfully misinterpreting my post, as I said the priority is a proven loco. I also speculated as to whether running on a heritage line had been considered and discounted.
     
  17. Johnb

    Johnb Part of the furniture

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    I'm sure it wasn't, Carnforth don't have a supply of volunteer minders to accompany the loco for such a trip, it's an entirely different operation to an enthusiast based group.
     
  18. Groks212

    Groks212 Member

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    Wasn't this subject done to death a while ago, or have I woken up today having imagined it had? o_O

    Dave B
     
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  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Yes but given fresh impetus by emerging info that a second loaded test run being required due to p&v settings. The question of running in arrangements therefore had a new context? Second loaded test run is unusual so surely running in is a valid topic of discussion? A discussion, that is, not "telling people what to do" - there is a difference, which some folk choose not ro recognise for the purposes of inflaming matters.
     
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  20. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Come now Mr Spamalot, you can do better than that.
    Getting 35018 ready has no impact on any tours because it is not booked for any and the comissioning has to be done one way or another before it is. The sooner everyone that matters is satisfied with it the better?
     

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